Is Robert Mueller acting outside the scope of a special prosecutor or does it matter?

Newell Normand
Thursday, January 4th
Paul Manafort sues the Justice Department.  Is Robert Mueller acting outside the scope of a special prosecutor or does it matter?  

This Hours guest:
Harry Rosenberg  - Former U.S. Attorney

Transcript - Not for consumer use. Robot overlords only. Will not be accurate.

We're back in and this hour we're gonna we're talking about the fact that Paul metaphor has now sued the Justice Department as it relates to. Is an issue whereby he believes that. The special counsel Robert Mueller has gone beyond the scope of his authority as special counsel appointment by rod Rosen Spain who's the assistant attorney general if you were called. The attorney general recused himself. And mr. Eisenstein was able was in the position of having made the special counsel appointment in here to talk to us about this and try to explain. All of what's gone on relative to does Harry Rosenberg former US attorney welcome to the show her. Go bikes built always good to talk to you and your listeners. Harry. If this seems to be the second attack on. The special counsel first being the information that they received the emails from the GAO where the lawyer for the trump for America. Wrote a letter choose congressional. Committee. Core relying offer who was the council complaining about. The fact that they were able to get these emails and a lot of other information we don't know whether or not they got it. These are via subpoena or a search warrant or whatever. But they've made these these complaints and now we have metaphor complaining that. That Mueller is now acting outside of his special counsel appointment so I was kind of curious what. Could Jews say about this man a porch strategy doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me. Well put this book that'll made the border for presiding on Matta for a bright orders civic. They spent. Almost two decades in the in the Department of Justice to tax work and looking at offshore accounts. Oh they're not newbies to the two to search them. But there war a couple of surprises on the first bowl all of that. They did not challenge. Smoker or all of deputy AG and depend bankrupt little precede. When that irritates the judge handling that matter. It is remains to be seen but I think inevitably. This lawsuit that was filed just yesterday. Is likely to be transferred to the judge presiding over the the criminal proceeding because. There in. On question bullet related to in terms of facts and and legal issues. So that's one but. I think. Knew going back a second is. As the fact that. Every talent has been neither independent. All of prosecutor. Counsel or special counsel on. There's been a challenge to use that person's authority going all the way back to 1988. When Ted Olson. Was. Well representing the administration. And two quarters. From president com. Not President Reagan and held his ground and he was prosecuted he challenged the authority you. And lost in the Supreme Court said no independent counsel. On. Kim all proceed with the matter and end fast for the second. New. In. Home. The Scooter Libby case. There was an elder attack on the the Florida news special counsel and the Supreme Court referred to. Ted Olson's case called Morse and purposes Olson and said no all of the special counsel has that authority. And rejected the argument that special counsel some kind of fourth branch of government and it's overreaching. In terms so legal for. So and this particular case the that special counsel. A lot of that that was a congressional black has been repealed and then they gave the the authority to the attorney general to name special counsel where he believes. I guess that there could be a conflict are some issues. Involving the FBI and or another branch of government that could be problematic. And as such Mueller gets. Appointed. And when I'm looking at the appointment. And it there's three things that it says it says that he can look at conduct an investigation. Of any links and or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with a campaign of president Donald Trump any end. Any matters that are rose or may arise directly from the investigation. He and many other matters within the scope a 28 C afar at 600 point four. It seems to me that if the special counsel comes across something that's illegal. The special counsel has the obligation to one need to look at and it seems as though he's got the authority to do that or. Pass it back to the FBI and and the FBI are DOJ look at. Well I think that's exactly right middle and I think that's the beauty important distinction ears that. Even though. Map for tourney on or focused all on the fact that. Ago special counsel has exceeded his authority and been given core launched do you think it becomes across illegal activity. He has the legal authority. Through the federal regulations not through an act of congress which is a party. Lapsed back in 1990 on his party through the federal regulations as you it was as. To to go forward with that and all of the ironic part is. That authorities. Falls within the scope book. The attorney general's office and then ultimately the president the United States as the executive board has the executive. So. I think it's a push for him to say that. Moeller could not go forward and looking at these issues if he believes criminal conduct occurred. And if you remember is under do. Russians chain was quick to say Tom looking over the shoulder Moeller every moment. He is coordinating with committee and monitoring exactly what he's doing he told it to all of the congressional committees he's told it to the public. So if it's not as Moeller is reliance. Yeah I you know and one a look at 28 C a far 600 point four which is a jurisdiction. Paragraph B seems to cover it I mean it's it's pretty plain in English if in the course of the investigation a special counsel concludes an additional jurisdiction. Beyond that specified in the original jurisdiction is necessary. In order to fully investigate the attorney general can determine whether or nobody wants to give a tumor and a. It's exactly right so I think even even metaphor in his seventeenth page lawsuit filed yesterday. Concedes that the deputy attorney general could expand bowlers authority under the regulations. If that's needed. He didn't say your group whether it was Nader and not but at a minimum yeah Moeller. Oh consults with draws and stain is the acting attorney general. He can get that authority to the extent it's not guarding bin afforded him. Yeah and Aminu and the other thing is is that I was expected to see that there might be some obligation that it be put in writing. It doesn't say any of that all it says is that he or she shall consult with the attorney general. And the attorney general can say. You know wave the magic wand say you got the official looking dopey and you're often running. The. Hot like that that at worst what's gonna happen. But look it it is not surprising for defendant did challenge called as mentioned a moment ago the authority. Both special counsel or independent counsel all but no one's been successful so far there you know there are some. Hit the constitutional. Issues law professors did debates around the country as to where other. Old beer is constitutional authority for special counsel but I'd just did not cities ms. federal district judge. Throwing now on the the indictment or basically saying that Moeller has no authority. To the active special counsel on those federal regulations. Harry that's allows kinda wondering torture thoughts were about to man a porch strategy because of it in my view. And you certainly have a lot more expertise than I do. But in my view to slippery slope for them is that the court. Could give Muller. Kind of a clean bill of health and say. Everything you've done is appropriate. The net you know and then from the map reports position then watched. You know I mean it seems like it's kind of a risky move at this point in time. Because a court could possibly say I mean he's got to go in there and give them all the things that he's done. That it that's wrong in the court could say OK so what not a problem. Well I think that's fraud Newell but. Again though it may have been in the map affording news charities. Fought the they would ever better dog champs with a different judgment could. Who's now handling the proceedings. But you know that is not you know growing flaw I think that. This civil losses that is gonna go to. All of the judgment in the criminal proceeding both of the judges apocalypse and some name judge Jackson or judge Jackson's one way the others can decide. Matter forts claims. Harry we got to get to break can you stay with us through the break. Sure we'll be right back we'll get to the talk lines additional Norman on debit every else. Rebecca we're talking Harry Rosenberg former US attorney you know about this situation where Paul metaphor has filed for an injunction against. Donald Muller. In and rod Rosenstiel Robert Mo I'm sorry and rod grosans dean as the acting attorney general and we'll go to line three Harry with. Don from the nor short what's going on done. Not larger than that archer good afternoon and mr. remembered well before you. Armed mr. Rosenberg and share Christmas or if there's. Mower because Marla Mahler is a civil suit and not a criminal case. Who would dip and mark and rode into these are pretty name grows and as well opener official capacities. Who would defend them when this special counsel's office provide legal counsel from their legal defense and doubles. Would it be the US attorney involved on this was ordered to conduct an important thing in this golf for her. No it is so that's a good. Question Noah that's. Much much suspicion. On that the Department of Justice Willis on. Carol sport to do and and both were on Wednesday and is the deputy AG and bill and Moeller and not so special counsel's office defend them. So children acquire. Can become. Voted attorney general Giap the US sorry yup yup SaaS and appointed the impact. And how would you know would the end and could Vegas quiescent but on paper defense. That basically oh wow man a sports team to win to protect the business records. Which would then protect president trump business records for that incident and turn it over there and just orbit and out. Basically shutting down the business which was legal article that was. Protected records. And then refused to appeal a decision against the against the government. Well you've touched upon it. And claw which we didn't talked about before which is that the matter for losses don't don't tail taught Don we have. You know we're but it the president law of the about Moeller oh for reaching and exceeding it is legal or. On and so while I'm sure that not coordinating with one another. The president was not disappointed disable the lawsuit being filed. I don't believe the Department of Justice is gonna just. Fall flat on it remember. Attorney general sessions is recused themselves. I don't believe he's gonna get involved and whether to defend medicinal selecting defending. All Robin stained and and Mahler. That's going to be the deputy AG's calls on the but he but he recused himself from the crowd and as you know merchant for a double them up. And. Well that is was in prime at that point it is now on a subject suspected you were recuse himself from that as well wouldn't you think. Up up our link dumb it's hard to elevate you make though. Good fine point the only recused himself from the criminal proceeding or the criminal investigation. But there is the SharePoint there was not at all any civil lawsuit that the talks but I think any. Any matter relating to the this special council's authority. It is going to be something Jeff Sessions. Is this recuse himself from. Otherwise he's going to be called and Bob both houses of congress and anonymous American. I agree with ball I just I just wanted to bring that point because it yourself think about nobody's talked about here in the deployment on the national network Spock now. Obelisk is going to be better if it's not as clear cut as everyone seems to wanna be taken out in the but it's an acre have a potentially get very very technical and Gartner. Middle I agree on as quickly. Called. I mentioned earlier that the of these Supreme Court rulings and mores and purses colts and and then Leo and Scooter Libby days. But Justice Scalia wrote scathing. Called the descent did back in 1988. In that case. It's it was one of the hardest Paula experiences. In his judicial career which is saying a lot. Actually have to dissent in that case and not have the rest of the course 2.0. Because he thought it was answer it usually you. By having special counsel. In this world. You know. I acted on appreciated very good questions. Harry one of the things that I found interesting in reading the the civil action. Is that man report. Describes that he voluntarily met with DOJ prosecutors in the FBI back in July of 2014. Relative to his. Representation. Of in contact with new minute numerous previous UN ambassadors in key. And his offshore banking activity in Cyprus. And he had not heard back from the Department of Justice cents 2014. In and basically he claims that. The investigation. Was focused on the activities of former U king Ukraine president was close soon after the man reporting yeah do. And now he's saying that this is what exactly the activities that I was indicted for as it relates to the special prosecutor. Now on that's exactly correct new lineup. And hopefully that's going to be the last week here well. Those facts because. On metaphor did specifically say. After he met with the FBI and the Department of Justice in 2014. They told him and his attorneys of them closed. They never tell you that year ago and then now or never gonna prosecute you bought. Taught clearly that was the message he got it and say it looked. Noddle league is lobbying effort but he has bank accounts all offshore and so I person and other locations. So. Oh I suspect that that is going to be the next volleys that is attorneys come up with his weight emitted. He was misled him if he was going to be the subject. Criminal prosecution he should have been told that back in 2014. And not. So it come on not told come on in and we're gonna chat with you and everything's on don't worry about any time ago Paul man for. Yeah I mean it's a comet. That was the one thing I found a little bit odd but that doesn't mean that they're not they can't avail themselves of new information in new evidence that comes their way in Aiken as you pointed out revisit this thing at any point in time and it may have we don't know where that may have been what is. We generated this investigation. Greg that we don't know what caused him to voluntarily meet with the DOJ. All representatives. Of all the the FBI and many people do that. Oh with the hope that the investigation will come to a quick and and they can extricate themselves from further investigation. And that may have been his mindset that time in 2014. Ball and saw it very well may come back to bite him on the backside now in on 28 games. Larry is always Harry Rosenberg it's always good to talk to you were really appreciate your time in your insight on these pretty difficultly and intricate map is legally. Well bill opposed pleasure and apparently lawyers audible ought to do the two under president drop these days. Absolutely we'll be right back. We're back we've been talking about the Paul man afford a complaint for declaratory and injunctive relief against a Robert smaller as well as rod Rosen sting as the acting it attorney general. For the benefit of the listening audience we had we did have a caller called in and said that you know and rightfully so. That Jeff Sessions had recused himself as a relates to the criminal investigation. That is being handled by does this special prosecutor. And the question is now with this civil lawsuit who's actually gonna end up. Defending and an athlete you know is even as we go to the ready Mazda opinion poll. You know the question was simply put is the lawsuit by a man for just a smokescreen and 74% of the respondents are saying. Yes and we're not completely sure of what the man a porch strategy is as we talk to Harry Rosenberg. And that has not completely revealed itself and I'm sure that. By tomorrow we will hear more and more about what the motivations are for the this lawsuit and what they hope to accomplish. I'd made the observation that. You know the court could give the special prosecutor a complete total clean bill of health as it relates to this appointment of special counsel. To investigate this and that there's nothing that he that he is done. In and violating any of the provisions of the authority of the attorney general's office and in naming any special counsel. As it relates to this and and as. I pointed out earlier and in paragraph B of the appointment it's simply says the special counsel is authorized to conduct the investigation confirmed by the an FBI director James combing. In testimony before the house permanent select committee on intelligence on March 20/20 seventeen. Including. Any links between Russian government individual associated with a campaign of president Donald Trump and any matters that are rose or may arise directly from. The investigation. Which is kind of at an all encompassing. And it also says any other matters within the scope of twentieth C afar 600. Well in 600 now on that paragraph C it also covers civil and administrative jurisdiction although it says the special counsel. Shall not have the authority to investigate that. As a relates to civil or administrative jurisdiction. It does have the obligation to forward that back to the FBI. Our department of justice and they figure out. Where the appropriate where that should be handled excuse me appropriately. Within the confines of the department of justice and we did have some questions on the tax line. The Department of Justice dobbs does have a civil side of the offices well. Not just a criminal sides should give us a call 260187. You let us know. What Europe thinking. About this in will be right back after the break. We're back and we've been talking about the Paul man afford civil lawsuit against a Justice Department and rod Rosen Steen and. Robert Mueller and a little on one talk to Leona Metairie was going on Leon. They are gaga your land. Committee is it to follow them stop and search market cease smarter walking on the street. And it's wrong and you know war but investigate and being stopped. We thank the trophy didn't do. Well I think investigate. In all fairness to mr. trump and what is argument is is that he has said there's no collusion. But there it and but what they're complaining about is that this investigation. Has moved beyond. Simply. The notion of collusion. And that I think that is what they're complaining about is that it that there is they're going beyond the scope of the authority and in determining whether or not. There was any collusion between the trop administration and Russian officials. And where that influence the elections are all the lies in that you know rose up again Leon. Yesterday as a relates to abandons comments BN. Revealed. Where he said that this meeting and trump tower. Which treasonous and Ned Donald Trump junior I think you know basically has a problem and then that led to that that a hole. Back and forth between Dan and and and the president. Is is about how you characterized. All of these activities that men have been revealed that have revealed themselves over the last six to eight months. Okay. Phil Roberts wondered if you stop somebody and find out their fuel. You know that would follow him saying things. Or no and no I mean I get what you're saying and understand what I'm saying is is I think it's it's more complicated than than the issue. They're saying it's moving beyond just the collusion truck driver is adamantly stated I did not collude. With the Russians. You know I doubt it but I'm that's a whole another issue and and bad and actually says that does this is about the money. That this is about. Other things that that it that are out there before this is all. Seven done. I can tell you I don't know about you lean on but for me. You could stay up nights trying to figure out who's on first second third and home to us in this. But at the landscape changes. Every quarter hour. You know where it it it's. It's just movement that you know all over the place just and is in you know in the last half followed mr. Rosenberg we're gonna call and I called in. And I mean odd I read about two and a half hours worth of material in this in and he asked two questions that never even came to my mind. You know through that process of their so many different implications in downstream. Implications to a lot of what's been done. We may not ever get our hands around. I mention is that it was a prosecutor. It take you to be OK so. Well I believe where there where there's smoke there's fire I don't know who we don't have a clue as to what they know. Meaning the federal authorities in and we won't ever know until the matter goes to trial. So you know I don't know what Dana we don't know all of the people that they've actually talked to we only know what the media is able find out about. You know and and this. This little. Civil suit that was filed today may be a lot about trying to find out. What they know. It may be. Strategically. A strategic move on their part to trying dean. Some information. They are not gonna just. Roll over in and give it. Two on that's not the what happens in any investigations whether it be federal state or local. You know you try to preserve where your information is common from how it's how how you were able to. Attain it and you don't reveal it until you know it's it's absolutely necessary on the court compels you to do so. So basically. A good thirty keep your pocket. It hit. Well the other way other than the people that are jumping up and and and plead and you know right away I mean obviously we've had. We've had 11 or two of those already between puppet do pull us in flan. And obviously you have manna for and and gates that have been indicted and gone to the process. At the present time. But it as it relates to the I can I actor rest assured would one thing we don't know what they know and we may not ever know what they now. Course. We get a chance in the world that we can that it it is indeed they're still there are K. Maybe you can do. She'll check with. Yeah because we still pass from hurricane. Coming on my electorate be. Be glad to try out here I'll be glad to get try get them in and we'll talk about that with thank you so much lately on for colony and appreciate your insights we're gonna take a break at this kind of musical 260187. Inning or Texas and 87870. On a pro ready. Mazda opinion poll 68%. Of the folks think that Paul Mann reports lawsuit is a smokescreen will be right back. Rebecca we were talking about the situation or Paul Mann reports shuttling the Justice Department will go to line one and talked to run me what's going on running. There are there. Delicately column. You know and wellness in the election and then. Everything come above the trump junior and everything. I'll get my comment has more to do we're. What an we can continue to stand by and and real ago. Just. Except we're going on the scores were separate and all well presidency. You know or even if a lot of this though. If smoking in mirrors. I mean just the way things are going in the wrong and it be opened. It is you know we every. No question as to whether or not there was collusion. On the one cabinet members is revealing something that that. Probably true it probably not true and in the bed it was one of his school's copper. And now he's basically. Saying that there's so. Obstruction of justice notebook there's money. So at what point does congress say is that book and credit to preserve the integrity of now all global country. Do you really believe that congress is in a position to do that because I think they are in other part of the issue amended to this of nature of what's going on in in DC. I kind of think lends itself to what's happening here and I'm wondering. Many times whether or not this is a new normal. You know recruiter than normal and out you know what has become so familiar with that term could apply to certain things in my life right now. But but I guess my concern that you're right. Percival covers it seemed more concerned about. Make you sort of their term and all that it continues. You know there's a lot of the of the prison this in the there's a lot of division in congress. If this though new mobile and we don't all open is the world leader now to vote and turnout so we're. People. All the countries come in and trying to take ownership of America. I mean I think if there's the possibility that could have. Yeah I mean are out that you and I would agree I don't think it's healthy and and I think we we will meet our Denis offer for a long long time. Unless we do a gut check and we figure out what what this is really. All about. And in us said this earlier I mean almost every quarter hour of every hour of every day something is changing up there and we can't seem to get our hands around what's actually. All of these moving parts and what's going on I don't know if you feel the same way and that's kind of way out field. Yeah I'm a woman in. A mean bowl Louisiana and stricter so ritzy. Liberal blah war more. Well I guess my question is how old am. Conservatives. And held Republicans continue to return. The salute beings. Two and injured about country that are killing. The reputation of America I mean we can be conservative or liberal could be. Democrat Republican. But we have to understand that all future lies and will be. Yeah and let I don't know that either party has a quarter on. On you know do under right thing for the right reasons at the right time. And economic that week I could sit here and point to any number of things and have have been done by democratic leaders look we're coming off the heels of Hillary Clinton in a lot of issues that that that she's created. With her leadership or lack thereof in the same. You know with the Obama administration and in the same withdrew it reformer Republican leaders I mean I think we all share in the blame. Of the of this situation of where we find ourselves at the present time but running thank you so much for your call really appreciated. Thank you to listen and used and and scoop is joining us in the studio and Mary we had a lively conversation about skewed a lot of different things but a lot of different you know. Friction between federal government state government issues and then. You know obviously that did trump saga continues with the Paul man afford suit. Against the special counsel and the assistant attorney general and it's been a lively conversation and all these issues. One of the things we'll talk about this afternoon is the federal government and the possibility that under the top administration under attorney general interest sessions. That the drug administration is going to trump state laws that legalize the recreational use of pot. It's interesting though because you know sometimes you hear people say well the federal law should matter. Others will say it time to wait a minute don't states have the right to do what they wanna do. So there's a degree of hypocrisy here because. Some will say well known the state should be able to do what they want. But they take issues sometimes how they want the law to apply whether the federal government with the state. So we'll what we'll talk about that also you know the more I hear about president from from this book. The more I realize we have a lot in common. I'm series have a long way come cranky. No I don't have everything your comment by local let's be honest I mean. People make fun of my hair and his hair. Odd sort of betting comment but also I'm a severe German follow. So I get this whole thing about the president not warning people to touch his food or is close I get Mr. President. I get it out I'm with ya got your back on this one. I do you classify yourself as a German fold and especially it's important to talk about this during this. Flu season where the flu or should I mean it's it's knocking out people here at the radio station left and right everywhere. So if you're ever gonna worry about germs this is a time of year to do it so maybe somebody will make a suggestion or maybe on make a suggestion. They'll help you from getting the flu germs so we'll talk about that also a new study shows there are more adults now. Living with adults. I'd I don't roommates to cut expenses. Could Q. Or have you or do you live within a dope roommate and would you do this to cut expenses. I guess so people could afford to live in a nicer place if I had a roommate. Yeah I could you live with a roommate. Is I guess it all depends of me it. You know the housing in a lot of areas is a very difficult thing to managed today and you read more and more about how much the housing dollar is consuming of your income so you do things that in order to be close to work coming. You and iron are we were lucky people that we can live close to where we work you know so but not for others I mean on the East Coast. And get a number of opera and travel and hour. Yeah get to work Panamax that I cannot do so if that was the option yeah occupy under I think back up. We'll be right back stay tuned scoots up next we appreciate the participation today see you tomorrow morning.